#18 Staying visible as a business owner with Facebook Ads Expert, Jon Loomer

Aggie Meroni: 0:05

Welcome to the freelance Ads Club podcast with me, Aggie Meroni. Whether you're a seasoned freelance ads manager, or just thinking about taking the leap into self employment, this podcast is for you. Every week, I'll be releasing a bite-sized episode, I'll be sharing mistakes I've made and lessons I've learned from my own freelance business. I'll be showcasing some of the amazingly talented freelancers in the freelance Ads Club. And I also will be speaking to some incredible guests who generously be sharing their knowledge with us to help us keep updated with industry trends. And I really hope that after listening to this podcast, you will come away full of confidence on how to win great clients, how to charge correctly, and most importantly, retain those dream clients so that you build a successful and sustainable business. Welcome to Episode 18 of the freelance Ads club Podcast. Today, I am joined by Jon Loomer, who is the dawn of Facebook ads, I'm absolutely thrilled that he agreed to come and join us and share his knowledge. When I first invited John on the podcast, I thought that we would probably be talking mostly about Facebook ads, the change in the environment, how that impacts you as an ad buyer and your clients. And whilst we did touch on that, the majority of the conversation was about how you can stay visible as a business owner and how you have to adapt to changing environments. And we talked about John's own journey in launching his tiktok account and how he's grown that account, which if you haven't followed it already, you really must. It's really good. So tune in and listen to what John had to say. Hello, John, thank you so much for joining me today on the freelance Ads club podcast.

Jon Loomer: 2:03

It's, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Aggie Meroni: 2:05

No problem. So I'm gonna just dive straight in. And I'm just gonna ask you, I mean, I think everyone that listens to this will know who you are. Would you be able to introduce who you are, and how you came to what you do?

Jon Loomer: 2:19

Okay. So I've been, I started business 11 years ago in Facebook ads, education wasn't necessary my focus 11 years ago. But basically, that's when I was laid off. And I started a website, not really knowing what I was going to do with it. So my history and why I got started there. I worked for the National Basketball Association between 2005 2008. And we partnered with the with Facebook in 2007. So that was right when it opened up to us old folks, so everybody who wasn't in high school in college. And there are 50 million people on the platform at the time. And so that was my first exposure to Facebook, both personally and from a business perspective. And so that kind of opened some doors. So after I left that job, unfortunately, I then get got laid off from two other jobs. But I've moved my family in order to take that job. So moved across country. And so one thing happened when I got laid off at second time was like, I don't want to move us again, got kind of spoiled, because that NBA job was pretty great. So basically, I just, you know, created a website started writing. And in the more the more I wrote and started to be initially was kind of a general social media, social media marketing topics. And then more and more as like I was trying to build my brand. So the topic started to be more and more related to that. So then I started using advertising to build my brand and, and that I really started to find that focus in 2012. And really, that's what I've been known forever ever since is Facebook ads or Facebook ads education. So it's been quite the journey.

Aggie Meroni: 4:16

So will you work in marketing for the NBA? Or is it a complete change for you?

Unknown: 4:21

Well, it's funny, because so in college, I was a philosophy major. And when I worked for the NBA, I oversaw fantasy games. So fantasy basketball, just everything related to it. It was initially included licencing it was content, the games themself like product, and basically marketing I like I oversaw their, you know, annual magazine, and you know, all kinds of stuff. But the funny thing was when I left that job, and I was looking for a job, the woman who hired me at the NBA, get sent me a job Description for VP of strategic marketing at American Cancer Society, which is the job I ended up getting laid off before I started. And as a marketing VP of strategic marketing, like I don't know anything about marketing, like not even realising that the NBA that's ultimately what I was doing. So long story short, which is hard for me, but I was exposed to marketing without really knowing it and never took classes in marketing my life up until that point was a lot of marketing, really. But it was just in a roundabout way. So I was exposed to it differently. But yeah, so the NBA Job was a little bit of everything, which ended up being helpful.

Aggie Meroni: 5:41

Definitely, one thing that is very clear to me, like having this community of freelance ads managers is everyone has a bit of a squiggly career. So it's still relatively new, like, paid media is still relatively new as a career. And most people I know, did very different things before they switched into it. And I actually think that's what makes it so exciting, because you have people from so many different backgrounds was so such different experience, so many different trainings are in different areas. And they bring it all together. And that's what makes it so exciting to work in this space. I don't know if that's experience you have as managers that you've met along the way as well. Oh, absolutely.

Unknown: 6:21

And just people, you know, the, especially those who have started their own business, whether it's as a consultant, or like an info, marketer, that kind of like I have, and I mean, a lot of us usually get into it for a similar reason. And it's like, we want to be our own boss, but we probably had some sort of hardship to push us that way. Like, we got laid off. And that's, that's a pretty common story, and don't want to work that nine to five anymore. And part of it for me too, is that, you know, during those jobs, I had been laid off, I was working from home. So that was that spoiled me as well. I was like, I don't want to go back into an office and in the truth is like I would I never would have left the NBA in the first place. If they had allowed me to work from home, because we had to move to New Jersey to take that job initially. But so it's just a different world now. But basically, I've worked from home then since 2000, the end of 2008, you know, including everything with my business. That's, that's a tough lifestyle to break for sure.

Aggie Meroni: 7:30

Absolutely. I think so many people resonate with your story as well, it's very similar to mine, I was made redundant on maternity leave. And I was already retraining in digital marketing. Because I was in sales for 10 years in finance. And I just loved it absolutely loved it. Just like the creative side, or the founders I get to work with now it's just totally a breath of fresh air before. But I think a lot of people get that insecurity as well. But they're a career changer when they switch into something so different. And I've had guests on now that have done the same, and are really successful, what they've done and love what they do. So it's more just to show that it's normal in this industry to have that career path. rather than the exception. It's more like the rule.

Unknown: 8:15

Sure, it's normal. It's quite the journey to because you you go, you have to get that thick skin to get through it, I guess. Because there's a lot of doubts, you know, when you're trying to start something and not making any money in the early going, and maybe for a long time, just the ups and downs of running your own business, especially when you're not you might not be actually classically trained in whatever it is you're doing. And it's like, okay, you know, I never went went to college to tell me what, how to handle a downturn in the economy or the downturn in my business? What do I do? So it's kind of thing, it's, it's unique,

Aggie Meroni: 8:58

I think, as well. And I don't know if you agree with this as well, the landscape changes so often, literally, every day, there's something else. So not only do you have the challenge that you have to keep up to speed, but you also have to educate your client as to why that's changed, and why you can't do the things how we used to do them. And I feel like some businesses are only just accepting the iOS 14 update now, because it took a massive change last year when that happened. And it was very stressful, not just for agencies, but also for freelancers who were trying to manage expectations. And a lot of agencies churned a lot of clients in that time who said arch you see the agency, you're the reason it's going down. And they churn through like three or four agencies for realising No, this is just how it is now. Now that now strategies are finally like clients are signing off on the ones that the ads managers are saying this is actually what we need to do now. So yeah, it'll be interesting to hear, like what your experience has been sort of in the last 12 months or so 18 months, I guess now.

Unknown: 9:56

Well, I mean, part of it is that constant changes was good for us and that were needed more. Now, they might not realise that we're needed at the time, like you said, but it makes it harder for a brand, for example, to learn how to do the advertising and then just decide to do it themselves. Because it's just constantly changing. And at the same time, I think it's so for my business, like, I don't technically take on clients anymore beyond like a one on one basis. Everything's a group scenario, but it's the same thing. I mean, everybody needs to stay on top of what's happening. So I've got to stay on top of it. But that's a good thing, right? If if nothing changed, and then those other advertisers wouldn't need me either. Because it's like, Oh, I've got this mastered. This is easy. I don't need I don't need your help. So. But yeah, the iOS 14 stuff was certainly challenging for everybody. Everything that we're used to, I think we were getting spoiled with some incredible results. And, you know, to the point where I mean, I remember the days you probably remember this to where clients or even we, you know, we, as advertisers would question the results, because it's like, that feels inflated, you know, and now it's the complete opposite. It's like, oh, there's some missing convergence. Where are they? So, yeah, it's been quite quite the ride last year and a half or so.

Aggie Meroni: 11:26

Yeah, definitely. Another thing that I'm seeing now, and it's because of the downturn, that's happening, I mean, most of the people that listen to this in the UK, and it's pretty doom and gloom on the news, and I know agencies, even this week, they've had to layoff some major buyers, because things you know, their clients are leaving. And a trend that I'm seeing is, brands are taking it in house to do media buying, which is a risk because their general marketing manager will take it on. And then they're hiring media buyers to train the in house team. I don't think this will last because it's a false economy. And I can just see what's going to happen. And that's no reflection on the marketing manager. It's just it takes more than a few hours of training to do what a lot of experienced media buyers do. But is that a trend that you've seen in the past? Where agencies have or you know, or freelancers have lost their roles? Because it's gone in house? And then how that reversed as well?

Unknown: 12:23

Well, partly right. I mean, I think whenever a company is in trouble, one of the first things to go is marketing, marketing in some way, some capacity. So it's unfortunate, but I think typically, the company learns that it's not ideal, they need to cut costs, and that group is quick to come back once they must, they can. But you know, it's, it's difficult. Because, look, the challenge for the media buyer too, and the agency is making sure that they they're able, like they know that the brand's voice, because no one really knows the brand's voice better than the brand. So whether that's a partnership with the brand, or allowing the brand, some aspects still of the social media management and the creation of content and, and even add creative, I feel like the brand still needs to be involved in some way because of that. So you know, to a point, look, if, if the brand could do it themselves, and they were good at it, and they had the staff, it's probably not a bad solution for them. But more often than not, they just don't have the people. And they're trying to patch it together with with people who haven't advertised before. So yeah, this just does seem to be one of those peaks and valleys. And once we get through the academy, things should shift.

Aggie Meroni: 13:54

It just seems like every time things seem to pick up, there's like another knock in the road, you know, and I think one of the things gonna be back to normal is like, I can't remember what normal is anymore. It's been so long.

Unknown: 14:06

Now, unfortunately, it's kind of becoming normal. Right? So yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting.

Aggie Meroni: 14:12

Yeah, as you say, it's like one change just makes us more indispensable. Hopefully, that's how I see it as well, the more challenging the environment is. But I did see that you are kind of focusing more and more on your education now or flight ads managers. And another thing I've seen, which I absolutely love is your tick tock account. Because I think I was one of your very first followers on there, because I was actually doing it takes up challenge at about the time you started as well. And I gave up quite quickly because I just didn't have the drive I guess that you've had to follow through. But if anyone listening you have to check out John's Tiktok three, I really liked your tiktoks because they're just like really like digestible tips, but you You've said I think there's that one of your pin posts at the moment on tick tock is that you committed to doing a post every day in October? Did you want to do that in November as well,

Unknown: 15:10

I initially I was going to, I think once we hit the holidays, and I, like, I didn't have kind of the time during the holidays, do it, like, no one's gonna watch it anyway, like, it's that the other world. So the main thing is like, whenever that kind of thing happens, though, it's like, I'm a habitual person. So like, whether it's running, for example, I have a goal of running 1000 miles during the year. And in order to do that, I've got to consistently run like I can't have, I can't have excuses. It's the same kind of thing. Like, as soon as you get off of that, that regular routine, it can be really easy to say I'm not doing it today, either. So I've gotten back on it. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, today, I put out videos, and my overall approach will likely evolve as we go. But no, that's just really important to constantly create, especially for something like this, where it's new for you, like I, you know, the beginning that the hardest part is getting started, as you know, and, and first of all, just creating something that you're, you're confident and like, because you're gonna get handed this app, you're like, Okay, create a video, like, Oh, that's easy. And like you go through your feed, and you have all these like, really good polished videos. And they're using effects and captions in different ways and sound effects. And also, and like I have no idea how to do any of this stuff. And so the first first videos have to basically be like, understanding that you're going to create some bad videos, and probably no one's gonna watch them anyway. And those who do are following you because they support you and that there'll be, they'll be happy that you did it. So the way I've seen it is like, with every video, I learned a little something. And also, what kept me from doing tic tac and reels forever. It's just the perception that I had, and I'm sure a lot of people have of what that platform is, right? So the dancing, the you know, the memes and stuff. And you know, the trends. And it's not that, that it's not that stuff. It's just that you don't have to do that stuff. Right? So it's a matter of finding that sweet spot between how people consume that content, how it can be used to my advantage, and you know what message I want to get across and what kind of person I want to reach. And so you know, obviously doing tutorials and quick, one minute videos on just usually Facebook advertising or sometimes tic tac advertising topics. It's been comfortable for me, and then I can apply that to, to reels into YouTube shorts, and even some of those that turn into podcasts and LinkedIn or they're even going to so it's been really, really beneficial. And honestly, I think it's kind of put a jolt into my business over the last couple months.

Aggie Meroni: 18:10

Nobody say is that because it's attracted a new audience for you.

Unknown: 18:14

It's funny, probably, too, but the common response I've had isn't necessarily from new people. It's from people who it's been crazy. I honestly this week has been pretty incredible because I've had one on ones. People join my power hitters club community. Five or six people have already said that said this this week unprompted, that they're watching my video, like they followed me for years. So first of all, it starts out with a compliment that makes me feel old, but if I'll be years ago, and then they didn't see my stuff. And then they started seeing my videos. And we're like, oh, yeah, John is still doing stuff. And then they're they were inspired to sign up for something. And it's crazy, because like one of the one on ones I had this week. The last time I had a one on one with him was in 2014. Wow. So sad eight year gap. And he saw the videos that he signed up again. It's just it. It's not a mistake. Basically. It's like I was kind of stubborn in my ways for years because the way I created content was I right? That's what I'm comfortable doing. I don't like getting in front of a camera. It's also just all the backstage stuff like you always worry about the lighting and just everything else, you know, just is it don't have to have to talk to have to worry about that. Like if you write a blog post, it's easy. It doesn't matter. I'm sitting in my pyjamas done it. And so all that stuff that kept me from doing videos, and I always had an excuse but truth is, you know, as Facebook was evolving and favouring video more and more even before reels came about that started hurting me and I started reaching my audience less and less And so now, I'm reaching people again. And that's, that's the biggest thing. So even if I can't tie it directly to revenue, I mean, I've gotten word of mouth examples just as weak that it actually is. So even though like, none of my videos are self promotional in terms of promoting product or whatnot, just been really, really useful. And I'd be crazy to start making videos basically.

Aggie Meroni: 20:26

So when you first decided to go all in on tick tock, and that was pretty aggressive, like every day, there has to be a tick tock, and you'll open it on your tick tock, you just declared, This is what I'm doing. Was that was the intention, I just need to be seen, I need to increase my visibility, and we'll see what happens or was that like, part of a more concrete strategy that you had?

Unknown: 20:48

So yeah, initially, I was gonna create three videos a day ish. And that's pretty much what I did, which was really hard. So. So do that in the beginning, when you don't have a process yet to, and you're inefficient is that like, I probably be, it'd be easier for me to do it these days, I have more of a process but so it took a lot of time I was entirely focused on so my, I don't know, if I really knew what the end goal was. I saw an opportunity on Tik Tok, first of all, and then like, I didn't see a lot of people talking Facebook, about Facebook. And so I felt like, you know, a, I might be able to build my brand pretty quickly here and kind of be seen as an authority on Tik Tok, which would be something completely new, and then hopefully, change trajectory trajectory of things. But the other thing was just knowing that, that for it that, look, if if Tick, tock had a completely different format, than reals and YouTube shorts, and like, I don't know if I'd be doing it, especially because of like, the uncertainty about the future of tic tac in the US. And things like that, like, the fact that I can can learn the format and apply it to other platforms was extremely valuable. So because I, you know, the, the attraction I'm seeing isn't just on tick tock, it's, it's on Instagram rules, because Instagram I've barely used over the years. I mean, that started out as my personal account, which I've never used, I converted it to a business account, I still didn't really use it, I only use it as a placement for my Facebook ads. So this is the first time I really start using Instagram. And so it's been helpful in that way to to start getting me to create content in a different way, make this the VAT the value of videos, ultimate is the connection that is very difficult to make through the written word. And, yeah, again, there's gonna be moments of burnout, or like, I don't know if I create a video today. But I think now that started to see some of that progress. It's, it's it's tough to stop

Aggie Meroni: 22:57

your accounts growing really quickly. The last I think I checked it yesterday, it was like over 4000, which is for like, two months is that that you've been sort of like focusing on tick tock?

Unknown: 23:08

Yeah, but let's be clear about that. So so a couple things. Email, this helps. You know, everybody let him know, ads, I am running ads for that too. And I've done everything to try to improve the quality of the followers you get through tick tock, because this isn't stuff that I would normally do like, running ads to build followers. Like, you don't really need to do that on Facebook these days. Like that's such a buried, like, no one cares how many followers you have or anything like that. But it's like, well, if I want to get, you know, increase my exposure, I just need to reach new people. That's where Facebook and Tik Tok are kind of similar. Like if you're optimising for top of the funnel type of soft actions, it's really hard to get high quality results, right? So I say I don't mean to apologise for my 4500 followers, but like you go through the list and like, I don't know how many of those are really following my stuff. So but yeah, it's been pretty quick. Yeah, definitely have some goals there to keep building it.

Aggie Meroni: 24:14

I think it's interesting what you said as well, but how it impacts other things because you're not the first person I've spoken to who said Well, they've got slightly different someone I spoke to a different strategy. They were going all in on Tik Tok to grow their Instagram. Because linking the two when people discovered them on in on Tik Tok, it massively grew that Instagram account. And they're an Instagram strategist. So for them, they want people to find them on Instagram. And that's working for them, because they know how to make rules. So they're really good at those and they just apply the similar principles to tick tock so it's just really interesting how different people are using that platform for different ways to build their business.

Unknown: 24:54

Yeah, absolutely. I think well, first of all, I'm not getting comments and things on Instagram like I'm not even, I don't normally even go to Instagram to answer comments, because I don't typically have comments on Instagram. So that's something I've had to add to my routine. But I think the main thing is you just have to approach this differently. The danger of marketers getting on a platform like this sort of format like this is that everything is good. So how do we promote the product? How do we How to know what kind of ROI I can get out of this? And they do it for, you know, a couple weeks a month, just promoting product? And like, it's not increasing sales? You know, what, why, why should we do this anymore? And it's really, because the format, first of all, it's just really hard to tie it to revenue. On tic tac, you know, you know, like, I guess you can add links, but it's just through those party, third party partners, like the tree and all that kind of stuff. And but not just that, it's like, for the most part, that's not how people consume the content like that. They don't want to lose, they don't want to leave the app, right. And so I think you need to approach it as I'm not trying to sell product. This is only for one purpose, this is to provide value, to build my brand to build authority, your expertise, or whatever it is, depending on the business, it's just been top of mind. So that's ultimately what has happened for me over the last couple of months is like, Okay, now, when someone's thinking about Facebook ads, I want them to think of me, whereas they might not have been thinking of me over the last couple before last couple of months. So whatever your industry is, that's, that should be the primary goal. Because if you get into it, they can Okay, I'm going to do this to measure direct sales from tick tock, you probably be pretty disappointed. Yeah,

Aggie Meroni: 26:43

I think that's so important. And I think when you're approached by clients to do Tiktok, ads like I have, I actually turn away most people because they just don't understand the platform. And it's so content driven. If they can't provide the content, they just won't succeed. Like, it's like the same principle with Facebook ads as well. If it's a bad ad, no one's gonna you won't make a sale from it. So that is something I think that's ongoing, but it's not going to be like the miracle that solves all your problems, which are to iOS 14, I think, tick tock advertisers like to say that and say, oh, you know, everyone's moving all their money on tick tock, because like, it's just really different. You know, it's very different. But I think the benefit of doing so much on your own accounts is when people ask you, I'm not sure works, or how to create this, or, you know, can you advise me on what format to use and all that kind of thing? You know, you've been practising now for like over two months?

Unknown: 27:43

Well, that's why it's important to Yeah, to constantly be experimenting with things and trying things, because absolutely, that influences what I tell people they should do. I mean, the the person I the one on one with who I talk to since 2014, they have a similar business, in a way not anything related to Facebook ads, is that doing that it's the course driven on their website, and they want to drive people to their website, like, Okay, well, in order to get people to kind of understand the value you provide. In those courses, you already create videos, I think what's hard to get people to get, the idea to get past people is creating videos that aren't behind some sort of paywall or subscription wall. But you're not just creating something to entice them, create stuff that actually provides value, some people are gonna use that. No, they're never gonna buy anything from you ever. Some people are going to use that and tell their friends that oh, yeah, this is something you should follow, whatever. But um, yeah, like when you have that ability to create content already. So this isn't even a matter of learning a new skill is it's just imperative, like as a business owner, that you start using video within these platforms to reach people and build your audience. Because the whole the old school approach of building a website, and just driving ads to send people to your website all the time, and whether it's Facebook or Google or whatever, that's just not as effective these days. Because ads are expensive, too. So so just to drive traffic. It's it's tough.

Aggie Meroni: 29:24

Yeah, definitely. Well, you've definitely given me like a sense of urgency to get back on Tik Tok again, that's for sure. But I totally agree with you things are definitely changing. And I don't I just always feel that when, as like in the client, world, when you're dealing with brands or other people it's, they always seem to be so far behind because they don't do it every day. So feels like you'd have to repeat yourself so much to say no, we are not driving traffic there. And we're not overtly selling. We're just going to do this for fun or to educate. And I think another barrier which is as what I'm guilty of as well, holds me back and speaking to others, they said the same thing to me. If it looks a bit rubbish and not polished, that's fine, because tick tock is a rough and ready kind of platform. If it doesn't look, you know, pristine, that's absolutely fine. And also, a lot of people feel they need to be funny. So you know, you're sort of like, you know, kind of caricatures of life, you know, people taking the mickey out of things. But if you have a topic for your business that isn't that isn't funny. It can put a block for you. Because you think, how do I make this funny? Because it's not funny at all. It's actually a very serious thing that I want to educate people about. But that's fine. That's also fine. Like, I know, I've been talking to I've seen like mortgage advisers, Facebook ads, as well. Tiktok has all these topics, I followed myself. They aren't funny, but I learned so much. And I follow those accounts, because I learned something from them.

Unknown: 30:53

Well, I think you have to understand to with that platform, and I've heard that I've heard the stories a few times. Now. You don't necessarily want to go viral? Because going going, especially if you went viral, doing something you wouldn't normally do. I go Yeah, did something was super funny, or, you know, did his dance or whatever. And like, Okay, you got a whole bunch of followers, and none of those people care about anything that you're offering. That doesn't help either. So I think the key is remember, yes, there's, there's, there's a segment of that app. And maybe it's what the app tries to push a lot that is looking for funny and is looking for the dances and the trends and all that kind of stuff. That's fine. But there is also a segment of the people who use the app who need want to be informed. You want to be educated in certain topics. And you still need to follow Sasquatch the rules, but like, Look, you need to stop there some flip through. So first few seconds, you know, what is it? So you can't just hit record, take five seconds to adjust. It's like well, no, you have to get to the point really fast. That's one thing I've had to realise too, because I'm a slow talker. It takes me a while to get to the point. And I can ramble. So editing can be helpful, you know, but you're right. You know, sometimes it can be just some quick and dirty recording where it's not, you know, edited a bunch. And as long as it's helpful.

Aggie Meroni: 32:21

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have to say when I asked her like speak to your by podcast, I thought we'd be talking all about Facebook ads and all like that. And then we talked about tick tock, which I absolutely love. But yeah, I mean, this has been so helpful. And I think anyone that's listening to this who's nervous about promoting themselves on tick tock, I would highly recommend go look at John's accounts, just to get some inspiration of what you can do. Two months, there is no dancing I don't think called you're

Unknown: 32:53

actually this one. Viral? Viral. But so it's a long story, but it had a Facebook ads back, you know, background to it. But there were three of me. Yeah, that

Aggie Meroni: 33:11

was good. You haven't stopped using some effects, as you've sort of got more confident on there?

Unknown: 33:18

Yeah, no, it's, uh, that was that was about it was a couple of weeks in at already kind of figured that out. So look, it use it, use my account as inspiration in a way but also understand, like, you know, to bots, like, I also know that like, I feel like all my videos kind of look the same. So I'm constantly thinking of, okay, what are new things that I can do. And that's the thing is, like, always be evolving and learning and, and try new things. And you can't create that great video until you try a bunch of stuff and learn from from what happens.

Aggie Meroni: 33:54

So are you finding in your community that more people are interested in tick tock and how to use that in their own business, but as well for their clients? Is that a trend that you're seeing?

Unknown: 34:04

Yeah, so in my private community, I was really sensitive to that, like, I started this journey, you know, with the Tick Tock and the Tick Tock ads. So naturally, I want to talk about is that was, like, taking up a big part of my days. So I started talking about within the private community by sensitive the fact like, you know, they may not care about it like that. So it was like, Okay, I'm more concerned about this. So I put out a poll. It's like, are you using tick tock EDS? Do you plan to use? Are you just curious, do you want to learn about these things or you just not care at all? Or maybe you can't run tic tac ads because the country that you're in, and something like 95% or so of people were at least interested in the topic because they want to do I think it was about a quarter of the group that were already advertising. So honestly, that was surprising to me. I didn't expect that that there were that many people who would actually be interested in it. So There's look, the truth is too if you are comfortable running Facebook ads, it's an easy transition to tic tac ads. I haven't heard any facts to back this up, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't some Facebook engineers the tic tac hired to build it out because it's uh, in so many cases like a carbon copy terminology. I mean, it's it's tick tock ads manager that tic tac Audience Insights, custom audiences look alike audiences. This is a campaign set up the optimization, the campaign budget, I can't a budget to say all those little things. Like there's, you're not really learning anything new. The only question is, you know, what works and what doesn't, and things are gonna work a little bit differently there. And that's the one thing I've you know, had to learn. But beyond that, I mean, you can jump in there and create a tic tac campaign and feel like, feel right at home. So there's no reason for any kind of Facebook ads buyer to be intimidated by tic tac, it's actually you'll, you'll feel like you know exactly what you're doing.

Aggie Meroni: 36:08

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the platform itself to actually create the ad is not the issue. It's the strategy behind it, which is probably more different, or it's very different to Facebook, and probably something where expectations need to be managed as well about what's achievable on there, and how quickly, but that's just all on the video, it's the content is everything on tick tock.

Unknown: 36:30

Yeah, and the one they have seen, I think this is true. What other people have found too, is that the CPMs are much lower. So the cost just to reach people are lower on tick tock than on Facebook, it's just, if you want to drive people to your website, it's not that you can't, because that is part of the ad ad creation that you can send people to your website, it's just you're probably gonna get fewer clicks on that. Now. I'm not gonna say universally, that's going to be the case. But that's where I think it's setting some expectations would be good.

Aggie Meroni: 37:04

Yeah, something I noticed was, yes, it's cheaper, like to send the traffic. But because it's a younger algorithm, it just takes a lot longer to figure out what's working and what isn't, and targeting so broad as well. Your your budget is really going to dictate how quickly that optimises for you as well, which is another thing, if you're working really small brands, they probably need to see results on day one. And it's just really rare, or I've never actually heard of anyone being able to achieve really strong results straightaway.

Unknown: 37:36

Yeah, and what I found too, is it's, it's a lot like Facebook, but maybe even more pronounced, and that you think that using certain interests, you know, look alike audiences, whatever targeting will give you the best results. But more often than not even a tick tock you just go completely broad they are if you use their automatic targeting, which you just I don't even know what they do with that. They automatically figure it out. The CPMs are cheaper. And like I keep seeing like that the action rates and even the quality aren't necessarily different. The other day, I decided to use that advertising marketing interests, like that's got to be more effective than, you know, going broad CPMs are through the roof on that just by select by selecting just like 90 bucks, just by selecting an interest. But not only that, like the quality wasn't necessarily any better. So this is like a trend we're seeing not just with tick tock but with Facebook ads that, you know, there's some of those old old timers been doing this for a long time. It's tough to grasp this that sometimes, you know, we're going this direction, you should trust the algorithm a little bit more. That that may be the best way to get your best results. But yeah, it's it's a lot of the same stuff there and tick tock that's for sure.

Aggie Meroni: 39:03

Yeah, that is definitely something that a lot of people struggle with. I even had that conversation today about how there were too many interests in someone's account. They need to go broad, and they just they were like, it's just a struggle for me to take that in. I just don't know how to deal with that. I was like, you just have to trust the algorithm. Honestly, it does work.

Unknown: 39:21

Yeah, I've got a video going out today. It's about it's about going abroad. And that's one of the things that took me forever to embrace. Like I've heard people say that for the last I don't know, three or four years to go abroad. And I'm like, You're crazy. But the reality is, I think for E commerce especially. It is so smart. I mean, the algorithm is and that's really what Facebook ads are set up for is E comm. I still contend that Facebook's terrible for any kind of optimization for top of the funnel actions because they, for whatever reason, they still don't allow you to optimise for a quality like website Is it? Right? So since someone to my website is going to spend at least a minute there who's going to return is going to click around something like that, like, there's nothing that allows you to do that. There's like all Facebook cares is they sent you a click, that's it. And but we care about that, right? But when it comes to a conversion, they can automatically make all these changes, to make sure that you get as many of these conversions as possible at the lowest cost. So the example I often use when I talk to people is like, there was a time when I was I saw an ad my feed once for for these pair of casual shoes, right? I was like, oh, yeah, I could use some shoes right now. And I click that ad. My feed was just filled with more shoes. It, they weren't from the same advertiser. They weren't from the same brand. They were different brands, but they're all similar. style. Like that is so incredibly smart. Right? That it's, it's not just all of a sudden, I saw a bunch of shoes in my feed. And or from the same average from the same brand. It's this. It's a it's like, oh, yeah, that that's very similar. And actually, I like those better. That's where Facebook is really good and super smart and why you should go bro, like if you've got if your EComm and especially if you have a product catalogue and you can categorise your products. That's where it really does well does amazing things. And honestly, I feel like we waste too much time worrying about what interests should I use? Should I use this look like and what not just go abroad, let Facebook figure it out. In those cases,

Aggie Meroni: 41:33

I think that's really hard to communicate to people as well. I actually demonstrated this in my Instagram Stories. Recently, I was shown a designer bag, so I screenshot it obviously Facebook or Instagram recognised, I'd screenshot it. For the next two days, all I had was designer bags in my ads. Every time I got an ad or post, it's my stories to prove this is happening. And people can believe it. I was like, This is why you go broad, because this is what happens if you have your tracking on. So have your tracking on. That's why I keep saying like you have to have your tracking on. But yeah, that's true.

Unknown: 42:06

Well, the truth is, like, in a lot of these cases, it doesn't matter if you have the tracking on because platform, it's it's on platform, right? So especially if they're they've got Facebook shops, you know, Instagram shops, things like that, that there's they're staying, or the just the fact that they're engaging with that ad Facebook knows that. So all the iOS stuff doesn't really even matter. It's yeah, it's just incredibly people will see it as creepy. And I think, unfortunately, this this push and pull right now because we're also in direction of all of you shouldn't know that I did that and I shouldn't. But would you rather you're going to see ads no matter what, would you rather see ads that aren't relevant? Or would you would you rather see as it are related to something that you you're interested in? And that's a difficult thing right now, that's the controversial argument that we're still sorting out

Aggie Meroni: 42:59

handbags all day for me, please.

Unknown: 43:03

I mean, not that I want the handbags. But it's like, I just I've never really completely honest, I think it's bad. It's been bad messaging, I think on the part of Facebook. Because I think still that there are people who think that there are advertisers that we as advertisers are like, getting this live, look at who's all looking at our ads and engaging with stuff, who's a list of people and all this stuff. And it's all anonymous. It's all you know, just based on your actions, and it's automated. And I think when they talk about privacy, it's like, well, I don't know who's actually doing these things other than if you subscribe to my website, and you provide your email address. I know. I mean, that's what happens if you provide your email address, you lose anonymity in that way. But just because you came to my website or your acting, you know, perform certain actions. I mean, when an algorithm is sending you ads based on your actions, I struggled to understand how that's a loss of privacy.

Aggie Meroni: 44:04

You're preaching to the converted here with you. Because yeah, this chat has been so good. Like I always enjoy just chatting about ads. And there's there aren't always that many people do it with to be honest. So thank you very much. I've really enjoyed having you on today. And I really appreciate you taking the time to have a chat with us about tick tock Facebook ads, algorithms, everything. And I will add this in the show notes but if someone wants to come and find you, where's the best place for them to come?

Unknown: 44:32

I mean, wherever you are, right so if it's tick tock it's it's at Jon Loomer Instagram chat Jon Loomer, my website Jon loomer.com. And throughout it if you're looking for, you know, one on one help or private community power hitters club.com as well, but you can learn more about that on my main website too.

Aggie Meroni: 44:54

Yep, no problem. I'll add that to the show notes as well. Well, thank you again, John. It's been a pleasure. and I will definitely continue watching your tech talks.

Unknown: 45:03

All right, I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Aggie Meroni: 45:05

Thank you. If you enjoyed listening to this episode today, then please hit subscribe or follow depending on where you're listening. It really helps other people find us. Also, if you're a freelance apps manager, and you're looking for a lovely community of other ads managers to support you as you grow your business, then check out the show notes and apply to join us. And if you're a brand or an agency that are looking for talent support you on your projects, there's also an application form for you in the show notes to tap into the talent in our community. So thanks again for listening in. And I will see you on the next episode.