#17 Life after Facebook Ads with Amanda Perry

Aggie Meroni: 0:05

Welcome to the freelance ads club podcast with me your host Aggie Meroni. Whether you're a seasoned freelance ads manager, or just thinking about taking the leap into self employment, this podcast is for you. Every week, I'll be releasing a bite sized episode, I'll be sharing mistakes I've made and lessons I've learned from my own freelance business. I'll be showcasing some of the amazingly talented freelancers in the freelance ads club. And I also will be speaking to some incredible guests who will generously be sharing that knowledge with us to help us keep updated with industry trends. And I really hope that after listening to this podcast, you'll come away full of confidence on how to win great clients, how to charge correctly, and most importantly, retain those dream clients so that you build a successful and sustainable business. Welcome to Episode 17, of the Freelance Ads Club Podcast. Today, I am joined by Amanda Perry, the serial entrepreneur and former owner of Soup Agency. I invited Amanda on the podcast because she has had such a varied career. And I just thought as ads manager, most of us can relate to that because not everyone started their career as an ads manager. So I wanted to understand what her other businesses were, what she learned from all of those different business models. And also when she knew that it was time to try something new. Because as we all know, careers chop and change, and they're squiggly, and sometimes they don't serve you anymore. So sometimes it's good to know when to persevere, and when it's time to move on. So that is what I gained from Amanda, in this episode, and so much more. I really am looking forward to you all listening in on the episode and do let me know what you think. Hi, Amanda, thank you so much for joining me today.

Amanda Perry: 2:09

Oh, thank you for asking me. It's my pleasure.

Aggie Meroni: 2:12

So before I ask you anything else, the first thing I always start with is could you please introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about who you are and how you ended up doing what you do?

Amanda Perry: 2:25

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And it's probably the first time I've had to answer it since I was 'I am Amanda Perry. I own an agency and blah, blah, blah, that story'. So this will be a real good test. So I'm Amanda Perry. I've been in business for probably 16 years now. I feel like I've been saying 15 years for a few years now. I have done everything; my first business was like a food business cake business. Then I went into E commerce. E commerce is where I learnt all about digital marketing. And then that eventually grew into my agency, which I had for about five years. And I've just sold recently. So who am I now is a really good question. I've just launched a brand. I should preface all of this by saying that I'm ADHD. So I've just launched a brand. I've relaunched my training mastermind group. I am working with one to one clients. And I've got something else in the works as well. So yeah, there's a lot going on, but it's just different to what it was a few months ago.

Aggie Meroni: 3:39

I literally can't keep up with you. I've got something else that's like brewing on the side. I'm like, that literally sounds like me all the time. I always have something like going on in the background.

Amanda Perry: 3:52

But you try to ignore, that's the worst thing, isn't it? Don't think about it, don't think about it.

Aggie Meroni: 3:59

So this podcast is for freelance ads managers. And the reason I asked you on here today is because lots of people that run ads did not start running ads. And that's the same with you, you came from a totally different background. Well, it's connected because you had an E commerce brand. So that's how you kind of had to learn how to run ads. But a lot of people can relate to that, because they kind of came into it in different ways - I did as well. I have a very different background to this. But also sometimes people feel, now I'm doing this do, I have to do it forever. Or what can it lead to? Like, can I scale, that kind of thing. So I just wanted to get you on today and just talk about how like that, you know how that transition happened? And also when was that point where you thought actually, I want to try something different now?

Amanda Perry: 4:51

Yeah. Ah, yeah, it's a really interesting question. interesting for me to even reflect on that. I guess. So yeah. I I learned ads through having my own brands. And then it kind of got to the point where this was like 2017 2018, where people were saying, Oh, you, know, then, it was a subscription box. So the subscription box community was actually quite small then. So people were seeing that I was doing well and growing and asking for help. And that's kind of how I got into where I realised I could charge money for talking about something I really love. Now that I know about ADHD, and know how bad I am in an executive function, it makes complete sense; what a nightmare the actual brands were for me. So that's how I started getting into helping other people grow through the agency. I went to work for a couple of months with Cat Howell over in New Zealand, which was an amazing experience. Don't look it up on YouTube, it's really embarrassing.

Aggie Meroni: 6:02

everyone rushes off to do just that

Amanda Perry: 6:06

God, it just feels like years, I think with the pandemic as well, it was literally like 10 years ago. And then through the pandemic, as with everyone, you know, we grew massively, we grew from a team of five to a team of 38, I think we were at our biggest. And I think that was the point where it went from, I went from marketer to gatherer of people. And, that just is not my skill set at all. So for a while it was kind of fine. And we were kind of riding it. But there was a number of things going on iOS, coming back to the office, lockdown, all that kind of stuff. And there was a bit of a imperfect storm happening for me as I'm not really enjoying dance anymore. Everything went really technical, didn't it? Everything was you know, verify your domain and do this and complete this and everything. When we at the height of the hub, we had the Ecom Growth Hub, we had 800 people in there. And almost I would say like 80% of people who joined would do amazingly well with their brands, they would go through the course, put some money on ads, kind of work it out as they went, even if they were getting two times their money, they were just really, really happy with it. And then it all stopped, like the nice stuff about it stopped, the being able to help people that went, from people being really happy and being able to help them and see their lives change to justifying data and numbers and fees and all that kind of thing. And it just wasn't fun. So I think I would say it was really kind of the last year where I was trying to assess my options and assess what I really wanted to do alongside my diagnosis and kind of understanding that and that was a real catalyst for me. And kind of the year before that was just, I guess that phase where you like, I hope this gets better. This is just a post lockdown thing and someone works out like surely iOS isn't going to continue to be a nightmare. Because, you know, Zuckerberg will have to pull something out of his backside. And you know, and it just never really happened. It is stayed hard. It's not the industry or the service or the product, but it used to be, you know, three years ago.

Aggie Meroni: 8:44

I'm sorry that it was so stressful for you. But I'm just really relieved that it's not just us freelancers. Yeah, really hard. Yeah, we don't hear from the agency side that often I get an insight because I white label sometimes for agency. So I know that everyone was scrambling around and you see on LinkedIn, everyone's boasting about all their results. But you know, behind the scenes, everyone is scrambling to try and get their clients.

Amanda Perry: 9:12

That's why they've got time to post on LinkedIn.

Aggie Meroni: 9:15

Yeah, I mean, one thing that I've noticed this week, I mean, before we started recording, I was telling you like how exhausted I am after Black Friday. And the thing I cannot believe is honestly the people I'm seeing on LinkedIn say, We've made millions this Black Friday, we've had the best Black Friday ever, and I'm thinking you definitely haven't. Yeah, I know for a fact that is not true. I said out of all the clients you have, you might have one or two that have done really well like all of us will have clients that have done really well. But then there will also be those that didn't do as well because you can't outperform everywhere, it's just impossible. And you know, you just get a bit tired of it.

Amanda Perry: 9:56

I find LinkedIn quite difficult from that respect. I know a lot of people say about Instagram being triggering in terms of comparison, but I don't really find that on Instagram. I find it more on LinkedIn. And it's actually not triggering, I just think just shut up, you've got these people who just follow this formulaic thing. And, and as you said, you read half of it, and you thinkthat never happened. Yeah, I think Twitter and LinkedIn in terms of like D2C ads like the bros and they're, they're very formulaic threads and all that kind of thing. It's all just, it's part of their marketing, isn't it? And I can imagine for a freelancer, you know, a lot of freelancers got into it, because they had kids and didn't want to go back to work and wanted something flexible. And they were sold these courses and this lifestyle. That was true at the time, it was so true. And I often think about that very specific group of people and think, you know, if you're working at home, on your own on these accounts, with no kind of strategy people or data people or techie people to back you up. Oh, my god, yeah, hats off to all of you guys. I can't do that. Definitely. I've just launched my brand. And I can't get results from my own brand. Which is completely outed myself.

Aggie Meroni: 11:36

Is that for Hey Dotta

Amanda Perry: 11:39

yeah, yeah. So I've just launched an ecom brand. I'll to give a bit of context. The reason I can't get results is because it's a completely new thing. There's a massive educational piece around it. We don't have any data. It's a brand new brand. And yeah, so it's a networking digital business card that goes on your phone, it's done really, really well. But three years ago, I know I could have put 100 quid on it and just said, Facebook, go and do your thing. And found some people and it would have converted, but now there's a lot more strategy to it isn't there way more than there was a few years ago, or even even two years ago?

Aggie Meroni: 12:25

One question I did have about the Dotta, because I've seen all your posts on Instagram is like, how does the information, because for anyone that hasn't seen what it looks like, it looks like a sticker that you put on the back of your phone?

Amanda Perry: 12:46

Yeah, it's just a little sticker on your phone.

Aggie Meroni: 12:52

And then how does it actually work? So you? How do you scan it?

Amanda Perry: 13:01

So the NFC recorders, NFC antenna is there on a new iPhone. So if you imagine if I had Dotta on here, my Christmas mug, you literally just tap it like that. And it transfers and it works across Android iPhone. And if you were getting my details, you don't have to have a Dotta to use it, or the app or anything like that.

Aggie Meroni: 13:26

So it just shows up on your screen or does it save as like in your LinkedIn, your Instagram and save it to your contacts?

Amanda Perry: 13:33

Let me just see if I can find my profile up here. Watch it not work now. Oh, oh, it's taking me too long. If you go on to our Instagram, there's a video of it. it's really quick. So we work with this company who provided b2b? And I just said to him, Can we work with you and do it b2c? So we're doing our own designs, collaborating with designers and brands, and launching it was a whole b2b thing and it's perfect because there's no making or fulfilment for me it's just marketing. It's just like the dream brand for me right now. And people seem to love it which is great.

Aggie Meroni: 14:23

So what happened when you sold SOUP? You sold it to Dean who's fulfillment partner? So he now basically CEO of both halfs that merged or how does that work?

Amanda Perry: 14:36

Yeah, so he has rolled SOUP up into his fulfilment company which was called the fulfilment hub. So we've worked together, I'm consulting with them still on a bit of a rebrand all now the hub and he has the fulfilment hub, the marketing hub and the operations hub so it's like a end to end ecommerce partner solution really. It was a great fit for him. And it was the right time for me. So yes, it's good to see what he's going on to do with it.

Aggie Meroni: 15:09

Yeah, definitely. It's just so amazing how quickly things have changed since the pandemic, when you think things are rising for E commerce. And obviously, I'm an E commerce person. So this is why people not everyone that listens to this is in E commerce. Yeah, it's like, obviously, like, a crazy time. And then it was like the perfect storm after when everyone stopped working from home or went back to work. iOS 14 happened...

Amanda Perry: 15:39

wow, yeah, I did this article, I think it was last year, I was obsessed with it. And he was talking about the boring brown line that just kind of goes along quite steadily and is quite flat compared to this like really sexy red arrow that like shoots up that everyone wants to talk about. And during the pandemic, everyone was like, I was guilty myself, you know, Shopify sales have gone up by this much. And Shopify reporting this and E commerce is set to do this, and these really sexy red arrows that were just going through the roof. And that, that growth is not going to continue at that rate. It was when no one could leave the houses, everyone's glued to their devices, and could only shop online. And also, like had excess cash, because you're either on furlough or, you know, things were doing quite well. I know. Not everyone. But you know, a lot of people weren't spending on holidays or going out or anything like that. So yeah, it was foolish, really to assume that that will continue. But the boring brown line just told this story of actually, without the spike of pandemic, we would back to where we were, it's no worse. It's just that what happened during lockdown is that people took on bigger offices and more team members and, you know, added on to their inventory in their stock holding like made.com. That's what happened with them, wasn't it?

Aggie Meroni: 17:21

Yeah, definitely. I think the challenge that not just freelancers, but probably agencies are having this now as well. It's a lot of brands are flat, or maybe last year, maybe they're a little bit down as well. I mean, some some are really struggling. But then it's kind of justifying why you're there. Because the brands probably don't appreciate that if they weren't doing any advertising at all, they'd been a lot worse position. But they say oh, but we're flat. So what value have you contributed to our growth? It's like, we're stopping you from sinking.

Amanda Perry: 17:52

It's a really tricky one to justify, though, isn't it? Because particularly when if you're working with a brand, and they have a number of marketing partners, and you've got someone working on Google Ads that's claiming their click, that you're selling, you know, we've had a number of brands where everyone's fighting for their piece of the pie to report that sale. And it kind of makes you see when you hear stories about brands like made.com and you know, these big brands that you think are pretty stable. It kind of doesn't surprise you because if you think of those internal marketing teams, everyone's doing the same, they're trying to justify their budget and their resources, and potentially over reporting on, their sales or the attribution from their area. So Digital's a funny one, isn't it? It's a really funny one. You can cut it in so many ways. But ultimately, what matters is the bottom line, isn't it? And that's that's why brands are running scared at the moment. It's a really tough time for brands.

Aggie Meroni: 19:05

Yeah, well, hopefully, it won't be too long drawn out hopefully this time next year, everything will be back again.

Amanda Perry: 19:12

Yeah, well, I there's a there was a stat I read the other day, that the average recession last 11 months, like we can do that. You know, we thought when we left the offices for the pandemic, we were thinking six weeks, and it was two years. So we can do 11 months currently. I think we can do that.

Aggie Meroni: 19:35

But do you think like looking back on all the different types of businesses you've had, because you've worked with different business models? Do you think there's certain things that you've taken from and someyou've left from others that you think work really well or ways that people could diversify the income stream? So whatever they're doing at the moment in their business?

Amanda Perry: 19:55

Yeah, I think that every single business I've sold I've really taken the lessons from it. What did I like about it? What did I not like? You know, how can I create the next business based on those factors? For me, and I guess, I mean, this will be different for everyone but for me, now, we're adopting next year as well so my kind of criteria for business looks a bit different at the moment, because I have to, you know, have like three to six months off so my criteria looks different. And my criteria right now is what can I do by myself from home? While you know, optimising for happy is my goal, what can I do that makes me happy, that will sustain my lifestyle and bring money in and you know, all the rest of it. So my criteria is definitely different to other people's. But I think that that model works, I think people really should be optimising for happy and put in the the joy and excitement first in the jobs, which might sound very cool. Falling off the treadmill might sound very privileged. I imagine a lot of people saying, well, it's alright for you, you know, you've just sold a business and all that kind of thing. But I really do think that we have gotten to this point where people are just working themselves into the ground. And you know, it's, it's not just money that is valuable to people, we have to start valuing our time, our energy time with our families, all that kind of thing. So it's really looking at that broad spectrum and I guess it's quite complex. But what do I need right now in my life? What is my priority? Well, you know, I've got young kids, so I have to be around to take them to school. And that is what makes me happy. Okay, well, then, what can I do that was between, you know, half, nine and half, two, or whatever it might be, rather than, build this business. And now the wheel is moving the hamster rather than the hamster in the wheel, you know, getting, like, dragged around in my business. And I really think, and I know, it does sound incredibly privileged. But I really think that we have to, we have to stop that ourselves. And we have to sit down and say, what, what do I need? Like, what? What do I actually need in terms of money? We're all chasing these goals. But are they even yours? Do you need to make 10k a month? Do you need to make 100k a month? Do you need to be Forbes 30? Under 30? Whatever it might be? You know, Is that really your goal? And that's kind of my matrix for working out what what comes next for me?

Aggie Meroni: 23:06

Yeah, I think I don't know if anyone else thinks this will relate to that. But I feel like I know what makes me happy. But then there's like this constant fear. It's like, well, there's that like fear as a freelancer, that your contracts can end at any time. And you'll always be selling yourself so that you're never like without a client. And that's just part of your lifestyle, because you know that's just how it is. And then sometimes, if you're having a lean month, you might accept a client, you know, not right for you. And it's not worth the money, because they'll stress you out so much, not respect your boundaries and have unrealistic expectations or that kind of thing. I think personally, I'm at a stage where I don't have to deal with that as much. I had a very stressful year last year. So I know it's possible for anyone in that situation to not have to deal with that anymore. But I don't think that hamster wheel really stops if you're a freelancer.

Amanda Perry: 23:58

And how easy is it to say, oh, you know that a red flag, I knew I shouldn't have taken that client on, I'll never do that, again. You know, all people online who are trying to sell you how to be a freelancer course to say like, I'll teach you how to never work with the wrong client. And it's just not realistic -it's not even what I'm saying. It's not realistic to say, well, you know, I really only need like, three grand a month to live on. So I'm just gonna find two really good clients, because then you still need to sustain that, but three grand, you know, I guess I got to a point where I just thought, I'm just working to feed a team. And that to me, no longer aligned with my health, mental health happiness value system, in the context of my life at that time. It just didn't make sense. And I guess that's it, isn't it? I guess it's context. If you're or if you're running the hamster wheel, to pay your VA and to pay your designer in your copyrights or in your whoever else, and you're not happy, then then that's something that needs to be looked at, isn't it? You know, if you're chasing to make 15k a month, so that you can pay 7k out to retainers and support, that you're not happy, then then there's definitely something that can be done there.

Aggie Meroni: 25:34

Absolutely. The other end any things that you learned from the different business models such as you had a membership for a while, which is like the hub, you've had your subscription or that kind of thing? Are there more models where you can take a bit of a step back? So you're not always at the beck and call of flight your clients and things like that? Or would you say there are different challenges with different business models?

Amanda Perry: 25:59

Yeah, definitely different challenges, anyone who uses the words passive income, I would run like the wind in the opposite direction, because you know, even if it is passive income and do something that just goes to a course, it's not passive, you know, you have to maintain the course, you have to deal with the like, customer service and all that kind of thing. So, I would say there is really and there are, obviously are exceptions, but there's very little that can be classed as truly passive income. There are other models where you don't have to have that high intensity high touch client relationship, like membership subscriptions. But I mean, you still have, you know, you're either working with three clients on a retainer fee, and have a high touch client relationship, or you're working with 100 or 200 members in a group. And you know, there's much of a muchness, like, the group's probably harder to maintain, because I guess it's about boundaries, isn't it? And I've been there in the agency. And I've seen many other people that just so reactive to client that becomes the hardest part of the job, and you get very little time to actually focus on getting them results, because you're just answering their questions, dealing with like 15 amends to, you know, where recoveries or, or whether, you know, whatever, in creative and stuff. So I think that I think they're pretty much all the same for me personally, and I guess this is where you have to get your answer from. I don't want to keep kind of banging on about this, but I know that it's very relevant for a lot of people right now, once I got my ADHD diagnosis. And I understood more about that. And I understood about how I had limited energy compared to a lot of the people I was working with, and how I would really kind of take on their energy around me and I would take things very personally. And, you know, once you understand that, I feel you, you can start basing a model round. So one of the reasons I launched dotta is so that it can be a fairly faceless brand. It's not about me, it's not about it being my brand, because I was just so so burnt out kind of selling the agency, I just really wanted to take a step back from having to put myself out there. So I think it's things like that, that determine how you best work rather than you know, if you go model first, every model has its pros and cons, hasn't it? I think you have to put yourself at the centre and work everything else around that.

Aggie Meroni: 29:00

Definitely. While you're talking, it just came to me as well. I think this is when you heard you had ADHD. I also saw that you have another sideline, which you're just starting on your Instagram, which is like your rental property.

Amanda Perry: 29:19

Oh yeah, so just bought a holiday let. And we are in the process of ADHD diagnosis. So I'm in lockdown. We bought a house, knocked it down, rebuilt it. And for about a year we were like, Oh my God, this dream house. Isn't it amazing? Amazing. We bought a holiday let not far from here, which we're in the process of doing up. It's taken longer than we'd hoped. In the process of it and again in the context of adopting and wanting to kind of diversify the businesses that we have. We've decided to sell our house so that we can put the money into another three or four holiday lets, which will essentially give us again, people say passive income is not passive, like a holiday let, that's hard work. But it will give us that income. That means, you know, when we take three to six months off with the kids, then we've got money coming in. And we don't have to be thinking, you know, kind of sneaking, making Instagram posts on our phone or kind of doing any work at all, hopefully, because these are going to be, you know, kids with highly complex needs. I don't want to be one of those mums who says, I wish I was there more, you know, I wish I could just spend more time with them. So everything that we're doing is very strategic in that direction. Yeah, holiday lets are one of the ways that we've identified that we can kind of create that additional income.

Aggie Meroni: 30:55

Yeah, I think that's the kind of thing I wanted to get across just by having our chat today to anyone who's listening just that there are so many options available to different things, if you know what you really want that you can really strategically plan for it. I mean, yeah, putting out there, I want to move to Tuscany.

Amanda Perry: 31:13

Oh, nice. Don't we all? Oh, yeah.

Aggie Meroni: 31:16

Me and my husband and planning how we get out there, retreats and stuff from there. So it was on my five year plan. So it's like, okay, well, how do we get there? And that's kind of the fun of it as well, like how you make it happen. So just having an open mind, isn't it with different opportunities?

Amanda Perry: 31:38

I feel like coming out of lockdown. I don't know if I project this on people because I say this to everyone. I'm like, don't you agree? But I feel like loads of people I've spoken to lockdown was such a, I don't even think we realise how huge it was, is, you know, it'll be taught along withwars in history, lessons and so on. And I think it was such a pivotal point of holding a mirror up to our lives and just saying, What are you doing? You know, I know so many people who were homeschooling, all of that was a nightmare. But also having that time at home with the family and really, almost kind of getting to know each other properly. You know, rather than being passing ships in the night, and so many little things came out of lockdown. And certainly for me, the lesson was, it's not even live short, because actually lives really bloody long. This is a very long day, I think like short is a bit of a kind of gaslighting way to look at it, but it's time is finite. Time is finite money isn't? You know, and I think for anyone who just rolled their eyes, that's work for them to do. We were talking earlier, weren't we, you know, money is their clients and their work the thing that is blocking the actions that you're taking. And I don't mean that in like a gaslighting way, work with me and I can help you unblock your, you know, your limiting beliefs. I don't mean it in that way. I mean, there genuinely is enough to go around. And I think that so many people block that by being unhappy and what they do and not enjoying it and the energy that they put behind it. And I think that is the biggest lesson for me. And at this point, the difference I feel between being in the agency and being out of it. I would have walked away without a sale.

Aggie Meroni: 33:55

Wow. That's saying something, isn't it? Yeah. happy just to walk away?

Amanda Perry: 34:00

Yeah, I really am. And again, that might a bit of a privileged thing to say, it's nothing to do with money it's to do with the opportunities that have come to me since I've done that and since my energy has been in the right place, and I've been happy

Aggie Meroni: 34:24

I think a lot of it comes down to self belief as well. That you know, you'll be okay. Becauseyou've been through like some tricky business things like and Yeah, I survived.

Amanda Perry: 34:38

Yeah, exactly. We were bankrupt living on 30 quid a week for food and, you know, it was a really, really difficult time mentally, physically, financially, you know, really, really difficult time for a while and I've really had to kind of fight through that, and fight through the stigma and the shame and the trauma of it and all that stuff that maybe I haven't actually dealt with. You know, they always say, people who are, like, driven in that way are driven by something. And I often questioned that about myself, you know, am I driven? Is it about proving that I can do it? So yeah, I think it is about believing in yourself. And it's about realising that a lot of the clients that I work with, when they first inquire, what they're saying, they say, you know, I need your competence in my business for a while, I need your like, energy in my business. And I guess that's actually the kind of output that they're investing in when we work together, which was a surprise, I thought, you know, let's grow your revenue to this, like, this is the outcome, you know, let's create a growth plan and strategy. But actually, it's often just about having tthat energy or confidence in their business again, which is great, I'm more than happy to give that.

Aggie Meroni: 36:23

You have had a very privileged view on lots of businesses, like all ads, managers, right, we see on one side, we see numbers, we see the dashboards, we know exactly what's going on under the hood. But now that you're doing all your coaching, you see the emotional side of the founder. And as a freelancer, I see the roller coaster ride that you're on. So solopreneur, or whatever you want to call us. But I guess you see that from the founders you work with as well. But it's everyone goes through the same.

Amanda Perry: 36:53

Absolutely. I saw a meme the other day that said, every company is a mess behind the scenes, you just got to choose who you want to work on that mess with. But it's so true, isn't it? Like, I've seen some multi multi million pound or dollar brands. I mean, you just shudder to think of some of the things that are going on, because also a lot of these like internet kind of, you know, the coaching brands, or the big guys that made it really, really big. I mean, there's one account that's someone that everyone would know. And honestly, I couldn't believe what I was saying, people are often so far removed from this, and they've got this money coming in from all directions and absolutely flowing into the business. Things aren't a problem till they're a problem, are they? So I just remember at the time thinking how, how is he spending this much money on another worse one, I'll just show this to you because you'd be horrified. Another high profile coach that I was working with, the ad manager she had before me had run a launch for her annual launch, there's one big launch that everything through the whole year was about, he'd run every single ad using his own affiliate. 50% affiliate link, every single ad had gone through his account. And it took a couple days to kind of read it to see the stats and realise it. I feel like four or five years ago when I started running ads, We don't do this kind of thing. And I really thought that there could be this sea change where we wouldn't see that kind of behaviour. But I feel like if anything it's got harder, I feel like it's got worse because there's just more grey areas to operate in. I feel like you and your guy who's doing a really good job being taking real pride in what you're doing doing it properly spending the time on it. And then there will still be people who say, I don't want to pay your price. I'm going to this guy on Fiverr. So they do it for 100 quid a month. And they hand over their cash and they never see any results.

Aggie Meroni: 39:46

Yeah, to be honest, there's shocking things that I've seen in accounts. Yeah, I mean, even the old thing where the person managing the ads like creates the ad account, and then invoices for the ad spend, whilst he's an AmEx, they get all the points and then they own all the data. And then they hold the company's hostage and all this kind of really dodgy stuff. And I can't believe that still happens. I thought, actually that stopped years ago, and it still happened,

Amanda Perry: 40:16

You know what, I feel like I always used to think that. And then we started working with a really, really big brand, huge international food and drink brand. And they, we had this huge thing at the beginning, because every agency they work with, I felt like it's a level thing, every agency they work with, charge the media spend. So they're like, what's your fee? And then what's the media spend? And they operate in that way. And I was trying to say, everyone does that, because it's not ethical and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, well, we don't have ad accounts. We only run them through our agency ad accounts. So yeah, I think that there's a level thing and kind of size of business thing, maybe or size of agency thing, perhaps.

Aggie Meroni: 41:10

Yeah, it just seems crazy to me that they'd be that big to not care about the data that's there.

Amanda Perry: 41:16

It's a funny thing, isn't it?

Aggie Meroni: 41:29

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure we could talk all day about the dodgy stuff that we've seen in ad accounts.

Amanda Perry: 41:34

Absolutely.

Aggie Meroni: 41:36

So I mean, are there any last words of advice to anyone that you'd have? If they're thinking, Oh, I don't know if this freelance lives for me, what you would advise them if they're looking to make a change?

Amanda Perry: 41:50

I guess my parting words would be, sounds like I'm dying, if you have cried more than three days in a row, the time is now to change things. You know, it's a complex beast. And life doesn't have to be that that hard. I think you've set a great example, I guess, as someone who I know loves and takes a real pride in it, is very, very thorough, is very clear with clients, and has very good boundaries. If you are not that kind of person, and if your clients are running you ragged, if you're not getting results, if you're in that horrible position, where you're trying to defend your fees and keep clients on because you need the money rather than that you're doing a good job for them the time is now to start looking at other things. There's so many exciting opportunities out there, UGC is going to be massive. Everyone I speak to I'm trying to persuade them to start a UGC agency, because it's just gonna be huge. There's so many organic opportunities coming up in content, I think, you know, organic social isn't going anywhere. And, I would urge people who, aren't happy to look at how they can change that.

Aggie Meroni: 43:16

Absolutely just starts with Baby Steps, it doesn't hurt. Just put your feelers out and see what other opportunities come your way.

Amanda Perry: 43:23

Yeah. And you'll be amazed once it really aligned, that feeling you know, once you're happy in your work, and you feel confident in it. And you know, everything else does come. I know, it sounds very cliche, but it really is true.

Aggie Meroni: 43:38

Well, we've covered so much today, Amanda.

Amanda Perry: 43:45

Exhausted.

Aggie Meroni: 43:48

But thank you so much today. It's been amazing to speak to you. And yeah, if anyone wants to find you, where can they come?

Amanda Perry: 44:00

Probably Instagram, that Amanda Perry or LinkedIn. Instagram is probably the best place.

Aggie Meroni: 44:09

And I'll put that all in the show notes as well. So everyone can come and say hello.

Amanda Perry: 44:13

Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me on again. It's been brilliant. Thank you.

Aggie Meroni: 44:18

If you enjoyed listening to this episode today, then please hit subscribe or follow depending on where you're listening. It really helps other people find us. Also, if you're a freelance ads manager, and you're looking for a lovely community of other ads managers to support you as you grow your business, then check out the show notes and apply to join us. And if you're a brand or agency that are looking for talent to support your new projects, there's also an application for you in the show notes to tap into the talent in our community. So thanks again for listening in. And I will see you on the next episode.